David Leggat - giving it to you straight

Tuesday, 12 October 2010

REMEMBRANCE AND FOOTBALL

WHEREVER you are, whatever you are doing, and whatever opinion you are free to express, we are once again approaching the time of year when we remember those whose sacrifice grants us the freedom to do all of those things.

Of course chosing what football team to support and going to watch them and encourage them in their efforts is just one of the many freedoms - however trivial - we and the people of so many other countries enjoy. And take for granted.

Which is why it is correct that as a week of Remembrance approaches and we prepare to wear our poppies, not only with pride, but also with humble gratitude, football should play its part in giving thanks.

In the past though, any request for a simply act of Remembrance and homage to the fallen, has somehow sparked off controversial debate and protest in Scotland.

No wonder, as some of my buddies will testify, I often refer to my homeland as a dark wee country.

South of the border they do things differently, and in England football joins the rest of this nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in remembering the fallen.

Television pictures from all the matches in the Premiership show crowds of up to 75,000 falling silent for a minute.

Up here though, that is not always the case. Four years ago, when Celtic played St Mirren at the old Love Street on Remembrance Sunday, there was no silence. The St Mirren chairman, Stewart Gilmour later said it was an oversight.

Let us just think about that crass admission for just a moment or two. A quiet moment or two. In the midst of all those poppies, the night after the Festival of Remembrance from the Royal Albert Hall had been shown live on television, and following the Queen leading the nation in an act of Remembrance at the Cenotaph - also live on television - Stewart Gilmour forgot it was Remembrance Sunday.

Clearly, by his actions, we will FORGET them is Gilmour's mantra.

Celtic are due to visit St Mirren's new ground on November 14this this year, Remembrance Sunday, in a match which will be broadcast live by ESPN. Gilmour remains the St Mirren chairman. Perhaps this year someone will remind him of the day's significance.

There have been other occasions too when things have not been right. Such as two years ago when Celtic played at home and, according to the club tannoy announcer, the crowd were asked to show their appreciation in what he described as the "Celtic Way" by joining in a minute's applause.

Let me state right here, that I was not the only journalist in the press box who chose not to applaud, but to stand in bare-headed silence.

And let me also make it clear also that there were plenty of Celtic supporters in the areas around the press box, season ticket holders and corporate backers, who did likewise.

Maybe their personal memories were off a dad or grandad, an uncle or brother who, had first taken them to watch Celtic when they were small, and who had fought in either of the 20th century's two world wars.

Or perhaps they were thinking of a son or a daughter, a nephew or niece, a brother or sister, a friend, or the son or daughter of a friend, Celtic fans all, who have fallen more recently, or who are still serving on the front line.

Or maybe they were just giving their own quiet thanks for their freedom to be at Parkhead and support Celtic. A freedom won by the fallen they were honouring.

Whatever their personal thoughts, they vastly outnumbered the small group of protestors, away to the right of the main stand ,who had objected to Celtic, in common with all other SPL clubs, wearing a poppy on their shirts.

Both sections though were even more vastly outnumbered by the 50,000 or so who followed Celtic's official instruction and applauded.

Last year, on Remembrance Sunday, Celtic travelled to Falkirk, and according to one highly informed source, who is close to the Falkirk boardroom, chairman Martin Ritchie understood Celtic would have liked Falkirk to ditch their preferred minute's silence in favour of a round of applause.

It is to his, and his club's eternal credit that Falkirk chose to attempt to honour the fallen in a quiet and dignified way.

That they could not, and that the silence was broken by booing and singing from travelling supporters, was Scotland's Shame, and one of the reasons why I often despair of the land of my birth as a dark wee country.

It was also Sky Sports' shame that they masked the sound of this shameful episde by muting the it, though the booing could be clearly heard on foreign channels and on BBC Radio Scotland.

Sky then tried to explain this piece of blatant censorship by claiming they did not want to offend anyone. Sky Sports and Sky News are both in the business of journalism. Censorship is what all news organisations and all journalists should fight against, not collude in applying.

Remember the horrific picture from the Vietnam war of the little girl running naked and in pain and terror from wounds from the napalm bombing?  

I DO!

It was offensive, but it did much to heighten people's understanding of what was going on, giving power to the aruguments of those who wanted it stopped.

Therefore, should the silence be broken at any ground this year, we, the nation, have a right to hear it, and all media organisations, be they television, radio or newspapers, have a duty to report it.

However, let us hope that on Saturday November 13 and Sunday 14th, when at Ibrox, where Rangers meet Aberdeen, at Tannadice, where Dundee United face Kilmarnock, at Hamilton, where Inverness are the visitors, at Easter Rd, where Motherwell visit, at McDiarmid Park, where St Johnstone face Hearts, and in Paisley, where Celtic travel to play against St Mirren, in a match beamed live on ESPN throughout Britain, silence falls for a minute for an act of Remembrance.

It would be Scotland's Shame - yet again, - if anything other were to happen.

84 Comments:

At 12 October 2010 10:26 , Anonymous Graham Ramsay said...

Football fans can no longer remember their sporting heroes at football grounds in a dignified fashion. Instead we must "celebrate" their lives like a crowd of performing seals. That this offensive nonsense has been extended, in certain places, to the remembrance of our Glorious Dead is an affront to decent people everywhere.

 
At 12 October 2010 10:33 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Celtic 'supporters' - "Uniquely fascist"

"Of one thing there can be no doubt, however. Glasgow Celtic 'supporters' who participated in the mayhem and peddle a uniquely Irish fascism… "This is Ireland's equivalent of the National front."

Quote from Hot Press magazine, sold in Republic of Ireland

 
At 12 October 2010 10:37 , Anonymous Russ said...

It does not help when celtic's Mr Liewell after being asked his views on Celtic 'having' to wear the poppy on their strip replied ''We got caught in a trap in previous years, but it won't happen again. We have it sorted this year".

He has it sorted folks remember that comment!

 
At 12 October 2010 11:16 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scotland's Shame is the sectarian school system we have in the wee dark country.

 
At 12 October 2010 11:16 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do with the huns would stop treating British soldiers (dead and alive) as their very own useful idiots.

 
At 12 October 2010 11:33 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

funny how catholic schools are accepted in other countries except this wee dark country

 
At 12 October 2010 11:58 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scotlands shame?? more like Celtics shame.. Why must we ALL be ashamed.. its always only one group of fans.. Its hard to even imagine the pain and suffering that has taken place.. a minutes silence / year is not to much to ask.. BUT it won´t suit Celtics IRA.. anti British fans.

 
At 12 October 2010 12:02 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

shame how the hun use the deaths of people to "point score" the popy debate and the ibrox disaster being the 2 they love to do....

 
At 12 October 2010 12:27 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous post @ 12.02, typical Celtic fan. How can you condem having a minutes silence to honour those brave enough to lay down their lives for the freedom that you enjoy today. If it weren't for these brave men, then who knows, Hitler could have gone after the Catholic Church after the Jews. As for the Ibrox Disaster, again you advocate disrupting a silence in memory of 66 people who left to go to a football match and never came home again. You truly have been brainwashed.

 
At 12 October 2010 12:29 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

hun christmas and new year for point scoring! scotland shame

 
At 12 October 2010 12:55 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is there no tragedy,no human suffering that this diseased former hack wont use in order to paint Celtic fans in a bad light.Is this all you have in your miserable existence now David to be a mouthpiece for extremist rangers fans who hate everything Irish Catholic and Celtic?

Using the dead of world wars to pointscore over petty football rivalry really is the pits and I would suggest some psychiatric counselling if it isnt already to late.

 
At 12 October 2010 12:58 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The hacks who you say didnt join in the minutes applause,they'll be the same hacks who week in week out sit idly by as rangers fans desecrate the memory of the million men women and children,Catholic and Protestant who perished in the Irish potato famine.

Are these people really the right individuals to be lecturing others on respecting the dead.

Its a dark wee country right enough.

 
At 12 October 2010 13:03 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Those who died in the world wars, died to give people the right to decide whether or not they should wear a poppy or show respect. Nobody should be forced to honour the dead. However, those who do wish to honour the fallen have every right to expect to do so without having to listen to booing and jeering. By refusing to show tolerance for other peoples views you are very much like the Nazis these people gave their lives to try and defeat

 
At 12 October 2010 13:04 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Graham Spiers rangers supporter.

"Enter, then, an equally obsessed group of Rangers supporters, with their paranoia and conspiracy theories growing by the minute. For that group it is essential, paramount even, that Celtic's support observes the minute's silence. To these Rangers diehards the poor poppy has come to mean Britain, patriotism, and even, in a faintly crass way, Protestantism. In other words, this "Irish scum" that we find in our midst - the oft-repeated phrase for the Irish-Scots who favour Celtic - can go back to Ireland if they don't like "our" ways.

As stupid and unsophisticated as this view is, it has even been repeated in certain Scottish tabloid sports columns over the years. Evidently, the old journalistic rule of thumb still prevails: if you are employed in the toy department, keep away from religion and politics (and certainly theology).

From this contrived scene we now have ludicrous conspiracy theories sprouting. At Falkirk on Sunday there wasn't a cheep to be heard inside the stadium during the minute's silence from either the Celtic or Falkirk fans, but that is erroneously believed by irate Rangers fans to be down to the fact that Sky television, who were broadcasting the match, deliberately obliterated "a protest" by turning their microphones off. Thus, for the Rangers hard core, dastardly Sky can be added to a burgeoning list, including the BBC, STV, Radio Clyde as well as umpteen newspapers, who are due to be boycotted for their "pro-Celtic" bias.

Folks, this saga, this pantomime, I'm afraid is my meal ticket. I'm surrounded by this stuff daily: resentment and counter-resentment, a political, historical and theological ignorance among supposed zealots, and maybe more than anything, a kind of arch-Protestantism whereby the people who might intone "wur Proddy and wur proud of it" in their West of Scotland lingo would be singularly incapable of articulating to you a single tenet of the Protestant faith."

 
At 12 October 2010 13:08 , Blogger StephenRST said...

To all the 'anonymous' dregs of humanity who slither on here, whya are you ignoring the facts? You know, the empirical evidence beyond dispute?

Your fans get a free pass from your many apologists or useful idiots in the media but the ultimate remedy is in your own hands.

Behave like decent human being instead of depraved morons and there won't be anything to criticise.

 
At 12 October 2010 13:12 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pardon me if I dont take lectures on human decency from the sub human bigoted pondlife in the rst.

Now Stephen you can crawl off and desecrate the memory of the million souls who perished in the potato famine and have a good old hun guffaw about it.

scum.

 
At 12 October 2010 13:13 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Stephen where is the 3 grand ya thieving hun bastard hahaha.

 
At 12 October 2010 13:20 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pish stained old unemployed alcoholic.

And thats your good points.

 
At 12 October 2010 13:27 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Left without a job Mr Leg end?

Last resort, write your racist rants in a blog !

Sorry, that was the second last resort, the last resort is when your blog is no longer and you have to resort to ranting on follow follow

You dirty orange racist small minded wanker

 
At 12 October 2010 13:29 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

To stephenRST

Do you respect the dead such as those died in the great famine or Jock Stein (who helped with your dead)?

No you do not, you hypocritical fuck wit.

 
At 12 October 2010 13:29 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dancing on the graves of their war dead in order to paint timmy as the devil.

Lower than a snakes belly.

 
At 12 October 2010 13:33 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Using the story of the little Japanese girl horrificly burned in the Hiroshima bombing as a pointscoring tool,it just doesnt get any lower than that.

 
At 12 October 2010 13:46 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Therefore, should the silence be broken at any ground this year, we, the nation, have a right to hear it, and all media organisations, be they television, radio or newspapers, have a duty to report it."

And there you have it,this individual and his likeminded cohorts would be devastated if the silence was observed by all.The war dead are nothing more than a tool to aid his sick bigoted quest to get one up on the people he hates the most ie the Irish Celtic fan.

I have more respect for the war dead than Leggat orthe extremists this agendied blog panders to.

 
At 12 October 2010 14:02 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Using the story of the little Japanese girl horrificly burned in the Hiroshima bombing as a pointscoring tool,it just doesnt get any lower than that."

You missed the point by so much it's amazing you know how to use a computer!

 
At 12 October 2010 14:07 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"At Falkirk on Sunday there wasn't a cheep to be heard inside the stadium during the minute's silence from either the Celtic or Falkirk fans, but that is erroneously believed by irate Rangers fans to be down to the fact that Sky television, who were broadcasting the match, deliberately obliterated "a protest" by turning their microphones off."

Thanks to whoever posted this quote from "Spiersy" - just further wipes away any credibility he once had.

Even Uncle Peter heard it Graeme.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW24N1G0WIk

 
At 12 October 2010 14:09 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

If they hate us so much , then it really begs the question .

Is it time to send them back ?

The Famine Is Over Why Don't They Go Home

 
At 12 October 2010 14:11 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The famine is over why dont you go home"

And these are the people moralising to others about respecting the dead.

 
At 12 October 2010 14:21 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

We all know where the original desecrating of minutes of silence began.Now they dare to lecture others,they really are Scotlands shame.

1994: Rangers fans boo minute's silence at Pittodrie for Man-chester United legend Sir Matt Busby.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/when-two-tribes-go-to-war-1.200148

 
At 12 October 2010 14:21 , Anonymous gordy said...

My my, Mr./Mrs./Ms. Anonymous has been busy. Too busy to mention that their's is the only football club in the British Isles who has difficulty over Rememberance Day tributes.
As per usual, they resort to plan A (just the abuse, same ol' same ol') when they can't give serious or logical reasons for their inexplicable actions during this time of year.
Who do they think they are ? FFS,Anonymous 13:46 suggests that Rememberance Day only exists as a way to attack "Irish Celtic fans"

Anyway, I'm off to a funeral to shout, cheer and applaud, the "celtic way"
I wonder how they'll deal with the Pope's inevitable demise in this manner.

 
At 12 October 2010 14:25 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

In all seriousness how does the phrase, "the famine is over why don't you go home" disrespect the victims of the famine? Irish people moved to Scotland because there was a famine in Ireland. Most integrated into society and made a positive contribution. Some unfortunately didn't. These are the people who hate Great Britain. The people who sings songs celebrating murderers of innocent British citizens. The reason these people had to come to Britain is no longer relevant so if you hate us so much why not go home to Ireland? Nobody forces you to stay in a country you hate so much.

The famine song is different to the why don't you go home chant. One has never been heard in a Scottish football ground. One has

 
At 12 October 2010 14:42 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Racism its the rankers way.

"The controversial Famine Song sung by some Rangers fans is racist, appeal court judges have ruled.

The Justiciary Appeal Court upheld a conviction against William Walls over his conduct at a Rangers away match against Kilmarnock last year.

The 20-year-old's defence counsel, Donald Findlay QC, had argued the song was free speech.

But Lord Carloway said the lyrics called on people to leave Scotland because of their racial origins.

Walls was found guilty of breach of the peace, aggravated by religious and racial prejudice, at Kilmarnock District Court in December.

The offence related to his behaviour at Rangers' away match at Kilmarnock on 9 November, where he sang the Famine Song.


(Famine Song lyrics) are racist in calling upon people native to Scotland to leave the country because of their racial origins
Lord Carloway

Rangers has asked fans to not to sing the song, which refers to the famine that killed an estimated one million people in Ireland.


(Famine Song lyrics) are racist in calling upon people native to Scotland to leave the country because of their racial origins
Lord Carloway."

 
At 12 October 2010 14:43 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Celtic 'supporters' - "Uniquely fascist"

"Of one thing there can be no doubt, however. Glasgow Celtic 'supporters' who participated in the mayhem and peddle a uniquely Irish fascism… "This is Ireland's equivalent of the National front."

Quote from Hot Press magazine, sold in Republic of Ireland

 
At 12 October 2010 14:46 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of the most cringeworthy minutes silences was that held by the huns for Kai Johansen a coupel of years back. Hun club captain Bazza Fergushun, keeper Greegsy & the fat oaf Boyd, indulged in a bout of nipple-pinching & sniggering. Dignity ? Der hun doesn't know the meaning of the word.

 
At 12 October 2010 14:56 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why is this issue even being discussed when Rememberance day is weeks and weeks way,has the blogger nothing more current he can get outraged about.

 
At 12 October 2010 15:09 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see the people of Barcelona really enjoyed the huns visiting their city.

"RANGERS FANS IN BARCELONA. BACK TO THE DARK AGE
Sometimes we get lucky & see how people must have lived in the
"DARK AGE", so called because human knowledge stopped & the
masses were without education.
Yesterday in Barcelona, Scottish & Rangers fans gave us & the world
an reenactment of the then state of mentality & how barbarians acted
& lived back then, & all for free!

As animals they grouped up together to express their joy in visiting
one of Europe´s centers of culture, & to celebrate in the name of their
team & city - Glasgow- tonights FC Barcelona vs Glasgow Rangers
Champions League group game.

To show their respects to their warm & friendly hosts, Rangers barbarians
pissed on the statue of Francesc Macia, equivalente if a Spaniard went &
pissed on a statue of "St.Andrews" or "Robert The Bruce". A fairly
understandable mistake if you take into account the zero culture of the
individuals & their lack of mental evolution since 800 years ago.

SFS knows beforehand that these 000s Scottish performers are NOT a
true representation of the city of Glasgow nor of lovely Scotland. However,
the question goes out to all the educated, European & humanitarian
21st Century Scottish folk :
How long will you permit that these one brain celled walking animals
be the worldwide image of the country & of your long valiant history &
culture?

With such zero capacity for rationality the responsiblity falls on the former
& not on this army of walking shit roaming aimlessly drunk around
Barcelona. What are they doing in Barcelona if they have not any tickets
to see their team or the game? Irrational behaviour for irrrational
individuals"

 
At 12 October 2010 15:15 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

hahahahahahahahahahahahahah,the people of Barcelona know them well.

"one braincelled walking animals"

"walking army of shit"

 
At 12 October 2010 15:55 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cracking article and if anyone can say there's a lie in they are in denial!!!! Both Celtic and Rangers have scum in their support and we can point score about Barcelona or even about large john being aware but that's not the issue in the article.

It is what it is 100% the truth! and the truth obviously is hurting some commenting on here

Keep up the good work Leggo

 
At 12 October 2010 16:07 , Blogger murphy said...

I think the comments by anonymous tell us all we need to know about his/her twisted and bigotted mind. Apartheid schools really do have much to answer for and that goes for other countries as well where they are just as poisonous and devisive.

 
At 12 October 2010 16:13 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aye, but whit school did this Poppy go to ? That's the question that needs answering.

 
At 12 October 2010 16:25 , Anonymous gordy said...

WTF has Barcelona got to do with a minute's silence honouring the dead of British citizens ?
15:09 sure went off on one there.
Seems to be a touchy subject with timmy.
A wee word for all you "offended timmies out there. If David Leggat offends you so much, don't read his blog unless you enjoy being offended. That's why decent folk don't read the celtic view, the record, the sun etc. etc.

 
At 12 October 2010 16:29 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

If both celtic and rangers have a scum element in their respective supports,how come Legatt only mentions the celtic element?

 
At 12 October 2010 16:30 , Blogger murphy said...

"Aye, but whit school did this Poppy go to?" You mean which side of the divide created by the segregationists did Leggo end up in? I think you have just scored a massive own goal, not for the first time.

 
At 12 October 2010 16:33 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Typical bigots blame Catholic schools for everything.

sad and pathetic.

 
At 12 October 2010 16:45 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Funny how this blogger is being lauded by the same people who hate other journos for as they put it"only writing the negative stuff abour rangers fans and sweep sweep the negative stuff about celtic fans".

This individual does that as well only from a different angle,he writes about all the negative stuff in the celtic support and sweep sweeps any negativity about the rangers support.

So it seems its fine by these good upstanding rangers fans to print negativity about celtic fans but woe betide any journalist who dares to print anything negative about them.

Hypocrites one and all.

 
At 12 October 2010 16:57 , Anonymous ally said...

Can one of the "sellick" supporters please explain what's wrong with the article and at what point is he not telling the truth???

 
At 12 October 2010 16:57 , Blogger murphy said...

Apartheid is evil whether it be based on colour or creed. And I make no apology for blaming sectarianism in Scotland on sectarian schools. I assume anonymous must be in favour of certain forms of apartheid, the ones that he/she has been favoured by. That's the problem with indoctrination and the brainwashing process. It leads to blinkered minds and an inability to be objective. Anonymous proves the point.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:05 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"sectarian schools"that are seen as commonplace in most European countries without an eyebrow raised,yet here in Scotland it has the bigots frothing at the mouth.

Its also revealing how they never mention the orange order causing any sectarianism in Scotland,one wonders why.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:09 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

its the pyoor apartite skools that ur tae blaim n at

fuk ra pope in at no wit a meen

 
At 12 October 2010 17:22 , Blogger murphy said...

Sectarian schools also exist in Australia and cause division there. They even have RC Universities for advanced brainwashing. Like I say look at the research if you can't accept the obvious. Check out studies by Tajfel et al into minimal groups and you will find that segregating people leads to discrimination and bigotry. Are you not an example of this? Do you support separate development (apartheid)? Were you against the civil rights movement to emancipate blacks in the US in the 50's/60's and 70's? Time to face facts anonymous.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:25 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sam Miller, prominent Cleveland businessman – Jewish, not Catholic – is fighting mad about & concentrated effort by the media to denigrate the Catholic Church in this country.
Why would newspapers carry on this vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States, namely the Catholic Church?

Do you know and maybe some of you don’t the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday, at cost to your Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. Needless to say, that Catholic education at this time stands head and shoulders above every other form of education that we have in this country. And the cost is approximately 30% less.

If you look at our own Cleveland school system, they can boast of an average graduation rate of 36%. Do you know what it costs you and me as far as the other 64% who didn’t make it?

Look at your own records. You (Catholic schools) graduate 89% of your students Your graduates in turn go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%, and all at a cost to you. To the rest of the Americans it’s free, but it costs you Catholics at least 30% less to educate students compared to the costs that the public education system pays out for education that cannot compare.

Why? Why would these enemies of the Church try to destroy an institution that has 230 colleges and universities in the United States with an enrollment of 700,000 students?

Why would anyone want to destroy an institution like the Catholic Church which has a non profit hospital system of 637 hospitals which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people not just Catholics in the . United States today?

Why would anyone want to destroy an institution like that? Why would anyone want to destroy an institution that clothes and feeds and houses the indigent 1 of 5 indigents in the United States, I’ve been to many of your shelters and no one asks them if you are a Catholic, a Protestant or a Jew; just “come, be fed, here’s a sweater for you and a place to sleep at night” at a cost to the Church of 2.3 billion dollars a year?

The Catholic Church today has 64 million members in the United States and is the largest non-governmental agency in the country. It has 20,000 churches in this country alone. Every year they raise approximately $10 billion to help support these agencies.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:27 , Blogger murphy said...

Didn't know the Orange Order had schools. Or do you just mean that the fact they exist as a Protestant organisation means they must cause sectarianism? Have you ever experienced regression hypnotherapy? You seem to have Nazi type tendancies, you know, an irrational fear and hatred of certain ethnic groups. Hitler Youth Movement can do that to people. Ask No1?

 
At 12 October 2010 17:37 , Blogger murphy said...

Sam Miller you say. Never heard of him to be honest but then the Us has a pop of around 350 million. What does Sam think about the downside of segregating people on religous grounds? you know Belsen, Treblinka, Dachau, Auchwitz to name but a few? All down to one very famous born and bred RC's irrational fear and hatred of another religion. Have to say that Sam's opinion seems inextricably linked to the financial savings rather than thoughts of equality, respect, dignity and freedom. I'm more inclinded to take Martin Luther King's perspective but then I don't suppose you will appreciate his thoughts seeing as his name is a bit of an anathema to you.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:40 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

For me the famine song is mainly ironic. The people who are supposed to go home are home already but they don't believe it. They support a British club playing in a British league and were most likely born in Britain themselves.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:42 , Blogger murphy said...

You say that Sam is mad at the Us media for trying to denigrate the RC Church. Any organisation that harbours, shelters and protects child and baby rapists, abusers and paedophiles deserves denigration in my eyes. The eyes of the world have been opened despite the subversive and aggressive defence of the indefensible. "Suffer the little children" will never mean the same again.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:44 , Anonymous Frank Cameron said...

Reading some of the anonymous post has me reeling in shame,shame that some people can actually feel this way,shame of a country I love being tarred by this sensless bitterness,shame that so many with these dark thoughts are so embarassed by them they can,t even sign their name,shame to think that there will be some soldiers and former soldiers reading this with disbelief,and the most shamefull of all is that they use football to spout this bitterness,it truely is a sad sad world we live in.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:44 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

So an organisation that prohibits its members from even attending the funerals of friends and relatives if they take place in a Catholic church,tramps through the streets of Scotland blaring thee most poisoness bigoted filth you are ever likely to hear and not one ounce of criticism of the orange order by those who obsess about where wee school kids are educated.

That sadly is the mindset of the Scottish rangers fans,more to be pitied than scolded.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:46 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

pointscoring on peadophilia now,are there no depths to which these huns wont sinjk in order to "win"an argument.

What a sad wee country we live in.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:51 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

MINNEAPOLIS, MN-An organization calling itself SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) will file a lawsuit against an Episcopal priest who abused a California youngster years ago, and still serves in a parish today. David Clohessy, 46, a national director of SNAP told VIRTUOSITY that he could not name the priest pending the suit, but would release the name shortly. Clohessy did express one serious concern. "I fear that some 400 ex-Roman Catholic priests will surface in other denominations including the Episcopal Church." (Aug. 2, 2003)

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Eddie Thomas, pastor of St. Luke Baptist Church in Ringgold, LA., is arrested and charged with indecent behavior with a juvenile, aggravated incest and pornography involving a juvenile. (the Shreveport Times, July 17, 2003)
Police seize videotape alleged to show sex with child

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

South Austrailia, AUS. A South Australian police task force into child sex abuse within the Anglican Church had identified 217 victims and 48 possible offenders, police said today. However the number of victims could rise to more than 400 as investigations continued, Police Commissioner Mal Hyde said. Mr Hyde today likened the scale of police investigations into child sex abuse to those for the infamous Snowtown bodies-in-the-barrels murders in 1999. (The Age, July 16 2003)
Major sex abuse uncovered in Anglican Church

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Vicar Rev Robin Everett of Castle Donnington, Leics, is convicted of indecently assaulting two young girls. (UK Telegraph, June 7, 2003)
Vicar faces prison for sex assaults

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lake Wales, FL. The pastor at the Church of the Nazarene has been charged with sexually assaulting a male 17-year-old youth leader three times in 2001. The Rev. Gene Francis, 52, of Lake Wales, was arrested Tuesday and charged with unlawful sexual activity with a minor. (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, June 4, 2003)
Lake Wales minister arrested in sexual assault case

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Tuscon, AZ. The Rev. David Valencia, 47, assistant pastor of a Pentecostal church is expected in court Wednesday on rape charges issued by Pennsylvania authorities. In Pennsylvania, Valencia was an assistant pastor at Christ Church at Grove Farm, an interdenominational church that uses Anglican liturgy. The pastor of Christ Church, the Rev. John Guest, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that Valencia was dismissed in late 2001 because he was found to have pornography on an office computer after he was warned about a similar incident months earlier. (Tucson Citizen, May 31, 2003)
Rev. David Valencia allegedly had sex with a 17-year-old girl he was counseling

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 
At 12 October 2010 17:53 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

MOUNT KISCO, NY. Parishioners at the Presbyterian Church of Mount Kisco yesterday were coming to grips with revelations that their former pastor was charged by the presbytery with sexually abusing eight boys. The eight charges, unveiled at the presbytery's regional meeting at Webb Horton Memorial Presbyterian Church in Middletown, outline abuse of boys under 18. Among the allegations are that Miller invited a child into the shower with him, that he had oral sex with a minor on numerous occasions over two years and that he made inappropriate sexual remarks and propositions. (THE JOURNAL NEWS, December 5, 2002)
Mount Kisco parishioners react to abuse charges

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

HALN Reverend Young Key, 47 Gold Coast Presbyterian minister. Receives 8 year jail sentence after being found guilty in Brisbane District Court of rape, digital rape and indecent dealing with girl, aged 14, in 2000 at Nerang, south of Brisbane. Court hears Haln, who ran farm where visiting Korean Christians could work, seduced girl after offering to teach her English. (Queensland, Australia, 2002).

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

TRENTON, NJ. - Two adult males who alleged they were sexually abused as teenagers by a former Presbyterian youth minister have no right to sue the local church and its hierarchy because of the state's charitable immunity law, an appeals court has ruled.

The men sued the national Presbyterian Church, the church'sSynod of the Northeast, the Presbytery of Elizabeth and the Presbyterian Church at Pluckemin claiming they had been repeatedly sexually abused by their Presbyterian youth minister, Jeffrey Cheseboro. A lower court dismissed the case against the church defendants saying that they were afforded charitable immunity under state law. The appellate panel concurred.

"People don't realize this but if you send your child to a church-affiliated nursery school and they are abused by the teacher the only cause of action you have is against the abuser itself. The church is immune," said John Thatcher, who represented the plaintiffs in the case.

The way the law works, Thatcher said, if you are a member of a church and slip and fall on the stairs, you have no right to sue the church because you are a beneficiary of the church's "charitable purposes." A stranger,or nonmember, however, can bring a case, the courts have found.

In 1995, lawmakers did amend the charitable liabilities law. They said that trustees, directors, officers, employees, agents, servants or volunteers of charitable organizations were not granted immunity if they committed an act of sexual assault and other crimes of a sexual nature, but the charitable institutions themselves were.

The appeals court also upheld a dismissal of the case against Cheseboro. The court found that the two-year statute of limitations, which in most sexual abuse cases begins once a child reaches adulthood, had expired. AP 4/5/99

 
At 12 October 2010 17:54 , Blogger murphy said...

News to me that Orangemen are not allowed to attend funerals of friends and relatives even if they do take place in the churches that harbour the paedophiles. I think your views on the Order are somewhat subjective but then that's understandable given your 'educational' background. Can you explain to me how a tune can be "poisonous, bigoted, filth"? Do the notes offend you? Is it like the Famine Song that apparently mocks the death of a million poor souls ( whisper it but many were protestant) (scotland even had it's own famine) These facts however don't fit your agenda or maybe your school just missed them out when your specially selected teacher was teaching you about how the world is.

 
At 12 October 2010 17:55 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

CHURCH SUED FOR NEGLIGENCE. One of several girls who said Alva minister Rev. Robert Bruce Brigden molested her is suing the First Presbyterian Church for failing to check his background before hiring him. Allegations of sexual crimes were made at his former position in Kansas. Charges allege that he molested Alva church girls, ages 4 to 14. The church posted his bond. (Tulsa Tribune)

 
At 12 October 2010 17:56 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

LOWE Robert Arthur Selby, 57 Melbourne Sunday school teacher and Presbyterian church elder. Receives life jail sentence in Melbourne Supreme Court after being convicted of kidnapping and choking to death girl, aged 6, whose decomposed body was found in 1991 near Rosebud, south of Melbourne. Court hears Lowe, who attended Rowville Presbyterian Church, killed "for sexual purposes". Report says Lowe on two occasions waved Bible at courtroom, swearing he "never saw girl". Earlier, in 1984, Lowe was charged with exposing himself to schoolgirls at Glen Waverley shopping centre, Melbourne; in 1991, he was warned for indecent exposure at Croydon, Melbourne. In 1997, report lists Lowe as one of VIC's top 4 sex fiends. (Victoria, Australia, 1994).

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

JURY ACQUITS PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH. A Louisville jury of 6 men & 6 women found in favor of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) in a $5 million sexual-harassment suit brought by Janet Gellhaus. The employee claimed her superior Nagy Tawfik sexually harassed her, pressuring her into a sexual relationship by threatening to fire her. Church attorney Michael Valenti, apparently conceded the relationship when he said after the acquittal (shades of the U.S. Senate): "The lesson should be you need to immediately tell people about it, you need to immediately investigate your rights, you need to use some common sense & say 'no'." Source: _Presbyterian Outlook_ 9/7/92.

 
At 12 October 2010 18:00 , Blogger murphy said...

Wow you've managed to find a few examples of paedophillia in non-RC churches. Good to see that the churches didn't simply move the preacher elsewhere. Its also nice to now that the issue is very rare however serious and disgusting. What is really worrying however is the endemic nature of it in the RC church and that organisations disgusting and cynical attempt to cover it up. It really is unbelievable and outrageous. But then the RC church is like most other fascist organisations in that respect.

 
At 12 October 2010 18:02 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"even if they do harbour peadophiles",who harboured the Orange Order peadophiles who were raping young boys at the Kincora Boys home in Bealfast?

 
At 12 October 2010 18:06 , Anonymous HKN said...

Only in Scotland could someone who thinks that all children should go to the same school be called a bigot.

The brainwashing at the apartheid schools is obviously working.

Oh and for all the 'anonymous' hardmen, you want to get a grip. If you feel that strongly about things, why hide behind the cloak of anonymity much like the cowards at the SFA?

Keep up the good work leggo!!!

 
At 12 October 2010 18:09 , Blogger murphy said...

"even if they do harbour paedophiles"? Are you serious? Have you been so brainwashed that you can't even see your own twisted thinking? You seem happy to ignore the disgraceful, corrupt and disgusting abuse perpetrated on innocent Rc children by abusive adults in positions of authority and trust. The sectarian school system certainly did a good job on you and that's Scotland's real shame.

 
At 12 October 2010 18:14 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see the peadophiles in the Orange Order and the raping of wee homeless boys at Kincora by them is being brushed aside.

sweep sweep

 
At 12 October 2010 18:24 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obviously, this is not just a Catholic problem. And solutions must be broader and deeper than those carried out by Catholic cardinals. The whole church has a responsibility to offer decisive leadership in the area of sexual misconduct whether it is child abuse, sexual exploitation, or sexual harassment.

Recently, churches have shown unprecedented unity on issues of poverty and welfare reform. Now it is necessary to call for a broad based ecumenical council addressing the issue of sexual misconduct in the church not only the Catholic Church, all churches, including synagogues. Its goal would be transparency and openness in developing stringent, forward?looking guidelines, consistent with denominational distinctions, for preventing and addressing sexual misconduct within Christian churches and church?related institutions.

Such a council could include not only denominational representatives but also a majority presence from external organizations such as child protection agencies, law enforcement, psychiatric services, victims’ agencies, and legal and legislative representatives.

Crisis. “Crisis” in Chinese is one word. “Crisis” in Chinese means, on the one side, a real crisis problems etc., but the other side means great opportunity.

We have a great opportunity facing us. Crisis is often accompanied by an opportunity for extraordinary growth and leadership. We have that today. Even though you are the lowest ?? by far the lowest of any organized religion today when it comes to sexual harassment ?? American churches have a unique opening to develop and adopt a single set of policies, principles, practices, and common language on sexual misconduct in Christian institutions that is binding across denominations.

A system of cross denomination review boards could be established to help compliance and accountability. A centralized resource bank could be formed that provides church wide updates on new legal, financial, psychological and spiritual developments in the field. Guidelines, both moral and legal, could be established on how clergy, churches, and victims should best use civil and criminal actions in pursuit of justice and financial restitution for injury. A national database could be established with information on all applicants for ordination in any member Christian religion. Every diocese, conference, presbytery, and district could have a designated child protection representative whose job is to ensure that the policies and procedures are understood and implemented and that training is provided.

Any religious institution, or system, that leaves power unexamined or smothers sexuality with silence rather than promoting open conversation that can lead to moral and spiritual maturity becomes implicated in creating an unhealthy and potentially abusive environment. An ecumenical Christian council authentically dedicated to strong moral leadership in the area of clergy sexual misconduct might move the church beyond the extremes of policing our own or abandoning our own.

 
At 12 October 2010 18:27 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Big Walter Knew.

SIR WHO TOUCHED GIRLS FINED pounds 7,500.

Bachelor Baxter Cavan 52, was told by Sheriff David Noble he was lucky to escape prison for abusing his position of trust.Cavan, of Anniesland in Glasgow, now faces a lifetime ban from teaching for the offences.Andrew Gibb, defending, said Cavan was willing to put his pounds 11,000 savings toward a fine.

The teacher was found guilty of five charges of using lewd practices toward the children during an earlier trial.

Another said: "He did wonderful things for the school, starting up a football team, and was a scout for Rangers.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/SIR+WHO+TOUCHED+GIRLS+FINED+pounds+7%2c500%3b+But+parents+still+back...-a062887794

 
At 12 October 2010 18:28 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've always thought it strange that catholic schools are only and issue in countries with an anti catholic history. Did I say strange? I meant grindingly predictable.

For what it's worth, I'm no fan of the religious or their schools but am also conscious of people wrapping their prejudices in the name of educational reform.

As regards poppies, rememberance etc., the poppy and rememberance day has been bastardised into a jingoistic "support our troops" nonsense worthy of a BNP leaflet or an Ibrox pre-match warm up which is very far from the tribute to the dead of the two great wars it originally was.

While my relatives names adorn more than one war memorial and I'm very proud of what they did I've also had the misfortune to be around the hired killers that make up the modern army in Hannover, Cyprus and Scotland.

I wish this disgusting crowd of animals with guns nothing but ill fortune. Add to that the shameful acts of the British army in Ireland, India and anywhere else they've spread their poison then it's a damn cheek to ask any right thinking person to support such a vile institution.

 
At 12 October 2010 18:50 , Anonymous God save the Queen said...

Celtic fans, wont wear the poppy to honour the fallen that allowed them the free speech to spit and vent their bile.......GUILTY

Celtic fans, dont respect the Crown but are willing to accept the half-crown on Giro day......GUILTY

 
At 12 October 2010 19:02 , Anonymous Mark , PERTH said...

What a load of bullshit being spouted on here. The big tough Anonymous said... Put your names to your comments, dont be shy. You people on here who are Celtic minded call Rangers fans racist and sectarian, you dont do irony do you? You criticise British Soldiers yet honour IRA terrorists, deluded or what. You call Rangers fans racist yet use the word HUN which has been deemed against the law in Scotland. Grow up the lot of you.

Idiots.

 
At 12 October 2010 19:11 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

And you would never hear rangers fans honouring terrorists would you.................no they just have parties for them at ipox where they throw each other down the marble staircase......................aint that right mr Taube hehehe

 
At 12 October 2010 19:12 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

No more poppies from next year anyway and rightly so.There is a time and a place for remembrance and it's been the same time and place for 80 years+ except the last 3 years or so cause huns hatched a wee bitter plan in an attempt to prove some people are as disgusting as their own lot.Rather than clean up their own act Rangers fc decided ot would be easier to attempt to paint everyone as black as them.Fail.

The white lower classes are out on force on this one.Fukked up hunnism's all over the place.

 
At 12 October 2010 20:53 , Anonymous Ally said...

point scoring doing the rounds again i see!

As i posted earlier would one Sellick fan please answer the question!

"What is wrong with the article and which part is not the truth"

it's a simple question and what's the answer? Leggo is 100% correct here and yet 70 odd comments and not one denying the article!

I wonder why?

 
At 12 October 2010 22:47 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Same old Leggat rangers fans good Celtic fans bad repeat adnauseum.

Lets just be thankful for real journalists like Graham Spiers who has the bottle to point out that ra peepil are no whiter than white even though he has been threatened for doing it.

 
At 12 October 2010 22:56 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHAFmFsb9XM

If you don't love it leave it!

http://www.poferries.com/

 
At 12 October 2010 23:23 , Blogger murphy said...

I don't understand why anonymous complains about bigotry yet defends sectarian schools. I suppose that's the problem with prejudice, like beauty, it's in the eyes of the beholder.

As for the comments about an ecumenical approach to child abuse, how is this possible when the former Hitler Youth Movement member who leads the RC church at present doesn't have the decency to refrain from airing his own bigotted views that non RC christians aren't real christians? Sick from top to bottom.

 
At 13 October 2010 12:10 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Youm seem to have a real problem with Catholics must have been from the way your parents brought you up,but maybe for your own sake try and rid yourself of the hatred or you will end up in a psychiatric ward.

The only person who brought the subject of child abuse up is yourself,you sound as if you celebrate when a child is abused by a peadophile who attached himself to the Catholic Church as it gives you pointscoring tools,what a dad sick individual you really are.

Just to put you straight though and this is from someone who couldnt care less about religion there are no more cases of child abuse in the catholic church than in any other church and its a proven fact that 99% of all child abuse happens in the home.

Go away and educate yourself and maybe lose that massive chip yiou have on your shoulder about Catholics.

Maybe you can start here.

www.reformation.com.

 
At 13 October 2010 15:10 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see DIAN is making himself welcome here. Fucking loonball.

 
At 13 October 2010 15:31 , Anonymous ally said...

Still no sellick fan can come up with an argument against the article

Why????

beacause it's the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!

speaks volumes really

 
At 13 October 2010 16:09 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

ra shellik fans can niver admit wen they dun wrang,they recked the chapels in barcelona,they slashed innocent bystanders in sunderlund,they recked the villareel teem bus,they kicked a polis haf tae deth in manchestur,and they recked the minutes silence for matt busby..................................................oh wait a minut wrang fans.

watp
asda
lidl
b and q

 
At 14 October 2010 15:25 , Blogger murphy said...

Anonymous seems to be getting emotional. Its always difficult coming to terms with deeply ingrained, prejudiced views, but in the long run it will be well worth it. Perhaps some time looking at the reults of research into the effects of segregation and discrimination could awaken a more progressive and humanistic approach that the years of apartheid in Scottish schools have supressed. All human beings have the potential to develop empathy given the right support and encouragement. Anonymous, you can recover.

 
At 25 October 2010 16:21 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

tick tock... time goes by, so quickly, tick tock Mr Leggat, tick tock.

 

Post a Comment

Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]

<< Home